Hey-that thing's not legal!

Ah, the joys of using an Italian grip in electrical competition. Back in the day, they were not uncommon and advocated by many. Maestro Aldo Nadi says about the foil:

"In my opinion, the Italian weapon is by far the better from all points of view. Its outstanding advantage lies in its superior power. The handle is bound to the wrist by a leather strap about one inch wide which insures a strength and firmness of grip that simply cannot exist in the French foil. More important, it lightens the burden of the fingers, thus permitting most of their effort to be employed in directing the point. Furthermore, the strap increases the effectiveness
of the parry."
But that was 1943. As I was reminded by Maestro Calvert (about five times over the course of an hour) "It's just not practical for the modern game..." And he's probably right. But then again, the referee did have to halt my bout so that Calvert could cross the strip.

I do have my reasons for using an Italian. And I will agree that they can not be easily used for flicks to the back, ridiculous contortions, nor flying through the air. But they do have the added strength of a pistol grip while still retaining both point control and sentiment-du-fer, elements that often seem forgotten in modern fencing.

The real problem, however, is not in the practicality of the Italian grip. Partially due to its lack of presence in most fencing clubs and partially due to pure ignorance, many fencing officials do not believe that the grip is legal. There is, of course, nothing wrong or illegal with using the traditional weapon. Simply by looking at the rules, there is nothing against it. For further proof, simply visit the Fencing Officials Commission.
Go to their FAQ page and scroll down to "Is my grip legal?"; immediately following is the "Can I use a wrist strap?". As clearly stated in these paragraphs, particularly the latter, there is nothing wrong with an Italian grip, nor the accompanying wrist strap. If this, Dear Reader, seems blatantly obvious to you, let me give you an exam
ple of the people who do not see things the way we do.

You step onto the strip for your second event of the day at a medium-sized local tournament. It's the beginning of the pool, only the second bout, and you have never fenced any of the people in it before. As you are hooked up before your opponent, the referee comes over to you first. The very first thing he says to you (after joking around at initial check-in) is:
"You're using an Italian."
"I am using an Italian."
"Those aren't legal." (Nice he gets right to the punch, huh?)
"Um, yeah they are."
Pause. "No..."
"Sorry, but what's not legal about it?"
Pause. "Hold on, let me go ask [name has been removed]." He returns with the other man (let's call him Ref A).
Ref A: "Yeah, that is not legal." (Please keep in mind that Ref A directed your entire previous pool, while you were using the very same weapon."
"I'm sorry, but could you please tell me what is not legal about it?"
No response.
"The grip is entirely behind the guard, which is not more than the specified 120 mm. It is not
longer than 20 cm, as stated by the rules."You say. You know this because you read the rules the night before.
"Yes, but theoretically you could hold it in more than one way."
"Theoretically, you could use an orthopaedic grip in more than one way, too."
"Would you like us to take this to the bout committee?"
"Yes, please."
You will now wait for 10 minutes. Maestro Calvert will approach you twice. Your coach has gone along with the procession and directed the group to the FOC website. They return:
"Well, I guess the grip is okay, but the strap's not."
"Why? It's a wrist strap..."
The event armorer has returned with them.
"The way that they show it at armorer's college is a small strap at the grip (attached to the foil) that you put your wrist through. Not that big one." Huh? What is she talking about? Finally, your coach realizes.
"Oh, do you mean a martingale?"
"Huh? No, a wrist strap." You are a classical fencer; you know what you're talking about!
"No, no. A martingale is used on standard, French foils. This is a wrist strap. They're for Italians and are perfectly legal."
"I don't think so."
"Okay..." They leave to figure out what the difference between a martingale and a wrist strap is. 10 minutes later, they have that figured out. Now they're not sure if a wrist strap is legal. The armorer comes back to look at it. Then leaves again. Maestro Calvert comes over a couple more times, telling you the same thing again. About 10 minutes later, the referee returns to ask if you have it figured out yet. You assumed that he had been coming to tell you the verdict. You respond (in a joking manner) that if he's just going to ask you, you will say that it's fine. At some point, you are told that the armorer has gone into the conference room and is on the phone. You are told that she thinks it is dangerous. At this point, the ref picks up your mask and starts un-velcroing the back strap. 10 minutes later, the armor comes back:
"As tournament armorer, I am ruling against this because it is dangerous."
"Is there a rule against it?"
"No, but it is dangerous. A point could get caught in it." That could happen with your shoelaces, too.
"But there's no rule against it?"
"Uh, no. But as tournament-"Yeah, yeah. That's nice.
"Okay..."
"So you can still use the foil, just not the strap." You can't use an Italian without a wrist strap.
You use a French, which you are fine with, but still, not your weapon of choice.

Fun day, huh? Later, one of the head coaches at the club (who we were already on friendly terms with) came over and took a picture of the weapon and wrist strap and sent it to Dan DeCheine who said that everything looked fine.

This lovely view of the USFA does not make me super excited to be a member of it. Regardless, it was a learning experience. Italians are not practical for more than one reason. But I like them, and they are not illegal. So here we go...

9 comments:

  1. There's another type of strap you may want to carry with you just in case you run into that again. Its just velcro. With a ring to loop it around. The dangerous issue is the size of your nice leather strap and while its fine, its borderline big. Maestro Sahm said there's no way they'd me fence with my irish flash strap because its too big. But th he small thin velcro is flush to the wrist. So you may wasn't to carry one like that around with you in case you run into that again.

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  2. Thanks for the suggestion... that may have been okay, though the original problem was that it was illegal grip. (I think that we may have asked if that would be okay, but I'm not really sure)They just wanted to card me for something. I ran into a similar problem at Nationals, but there the ref was also just upset that I had something she didn't like, not really concerned for my safety as she claimed to be. I could have persevered in attempting to combine the Italian and electrical worlds, but it just wasn't worth it.

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  3. Bumped into your blog rather belatedly. I had been using an Italian foil without a wrist strap so I tried making my own. Sadly, I think i need to have a proper one made as the velcro one I've been using didn't last long enough.

    Got any tips on where I could get one made? I learned the Italian style when I was overseas and now that I'm back in Manila, I'm the only user of the Italian grip--not much people to ask for tips here.

    Oh, and as per USFA rules, the strap is perfectly legal. Martingales aren't.

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  4. I guess i kinda want to put my two cents in...rather late

    i used an italian grip (false ricasso) in nationals 2012-2013 and had not ran into any issue in either div 2 or 3 (i did however had my grip length measured once which passed). I use the italian without the strap (was learning with it but didnt like having a strap) and the grip itself was traditional.

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  5. A high school fencer I was coaching chose Italian weapons (mostly because I like them). He entered a tournament at Vassar College using false ricasso weapons from Rockwell Arms. The issue at that tournament was the the quillons were too long. They extended beyond the guard. The solution was that we clipped them with bolt cutters and filed them down. As for a strap... NYC PSAL regs prohibit any sort of strap, so we fenced without. My current maestro is a long-time USFCA officer and USFA coach. He's of the opinion that Italian weapons aren't permitted because they combine an ergonomic grip with a pommel, allowing the possibility for both the increased power of an ergonomic grip and the ability to lengthen up as with a French weapon. The point is purely academic, since I have no plans to fence in USFA events. But still... five years after this post... I would like to hear something definitive and official from USFA about Italian weapons and wrist straps.

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  6. Okay this is a long time after the fact, and completely nothing to do with the point of the article (quite the opposite in fact) but... where did you get your Italian electric, I want one!!! I have a Castello vintage 1950's Italian grip foil, it is the most beautiful weapon, wonderfully balanced and I love the grip; but obviously it's not electric, and I'm nervous to even practice with it in case the 70-plus-year-old blade breaks. I'd love to have something similar as a weapon I can take to my club and bout with, I've never seen a modern electric weapon like it until I came across this!

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    Replies
    1. Look at allstar foils. They have electric model with Italian grip

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  7. I was looking at some of your posts on this website and I conceive this web site is really instructive! Keep putting up.. fencing lessons

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  8. I just fenced my first USFA tournament with Italian epee. I used the velcro strap. No problem, but it is my home salle. One fellow said, "I didn't know those were legal again." I responded that they were never illegal and it went no farther.

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